Lazy in a nutshell

(hey, sounds kinda like, you have to believe for it to work. i think thats in everything)

^^ You've really hit the nail on the head here, this is one of the basic principles behind my strongest beliefs - the idea that belief carries power in and of itself. I also believe in the power of prayer (at the moment, remember, flexible belief) but probably the most striking difference between you and I is that I do not believe you have to believe ALL THE TIME for your prayers to work. It is the act of understanding the impetus behind the prayer, the method of prayer, the belief that the prayer will work and the wisdom to recognise when the prayer has been granted (or not!). Yet the difference I can recognise between those who generally advocate prayer and myself, is that once I have passed through the sequence of events listed above, my belief need not remain in the paradigm that prayer was used within. While perhaps the paradigm was the most appropriate for the circumstance, it may not be for the next and prayer may be a completely futile endeavour. For this reason, I believe very strongly that flexibility of belief is central to understanding and making the most of the events and synchronicities that make up our existence, for what does close-mindedness foster besides ignorance?

Again, I apologise for my long-windedness on the topic - if I didn't keep myself in check, I'm quite certain I'd bore you all to death. =P

NB: Correct use of the word paradigm, I'm impressed, and always happy that I can teach somebody something

and if you need to be put in check I'll let you know, go all out with your "ramblings" I'll read them until my eyes bleed..then ill figure out how to get a brail computer and learn brail and then continue reading. i love this subject.


hmm.....you need to read the book "the screwtape letters" i love that book. ive read it so many times. i have a version of it and i study that book like its the answer for the reason of life. lol..its by C.S. lewis..even if your not christian it can change your paradigm (mmmm i love that word!)

i like how the beginning it says something about how he has a cross hanging on his wall and he prays to it. and it says something about how he should let him keep praying to the cross, an inanimate object, instead to the true Father himself. i love that book..i think i wanna read it again...

and yeah, your beliefs are cool, but whats this sigil stuff? that's the part i find not good. (i changed it from evil to not good, because evil is satanic. this can be satanic but i dont know how you use it.) sure theres different kinds of sigils, theres a different king of everything, i wanna know what your kind is.

while you are away i will keep posting what i learn..


im on this site http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/chaos/index.htm

Gnosis - anything that confuses the mind so you pass out "fall asleep" for that when you wake up you understand in thinking without parameters.

omg. im sorry, but WHAT?!?!?! http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/chaos/skulfck.txt

before i read "defining chaos" i think chaos is disordered.
after i read "defining chaos" i think chaos means unlimited.

notice my, i think chaos is disordered..and i think chaos means unlimited...It is said in the bible not to go too far into detail in other beliefs without being careful. and i am trying very hard to understand.

Chaos, according to the “Oxford English Dictionary”, means:
1. A gaping void, yawning gulf, chasm, or abyss.
2. The “formless void” of primordial matter, the “great deep” or “abyss” out of which the cosmos or order of the universe was evolved.

important phrase "There are a couple of additional definitions, but they are irrelevant to this discussion. When chaos is used in magic, there is no place for confusion or disorder."

I like the italicized parts. and the sentence above the bold.

The Magic of Austin Osman Spare

Spare’s art and magic were closely related. It is reputed that there are messages in his drawings about his magical philosophy. One particular picture of Mrs. Paterson has reportedly been seen to move; the eyes opening and closing. Spare is best known for his system of using sigils. Being an artist, he was very visually oriented.

i still want to know more about sigils...and how they are not evil. (i still believe they are evil, but that could be offending, so ill just keep it at not good for now)

what i have learned: The system basically consists of writing down the desire, preferably in your own magical alphabet, eliminating all repeated letters, then forming a design of the remaining single letters. The sigil must then be charged.
the key element is to achieve a state of “vacuity” which can be done through exhaustion, sexual release or several other methods.
This creates a vacuum or “void” (there is where chaos comes into play)
magic comes from the sub-conscious mind of the magician, not some outside “spirits” or “gods”. (not religious)
‘Chaos is the universal potential of creative force, which is constantly engaged in trying to seep through the cracks of our personal and collective realities. It is the power of Evolution/Devolution.
Shamanism is innate within every one of us
Achieving Gnosis, or hitting the “angle of departure of consciousness and time”, is a knack rather than a skill.’ ok, its could be something you do, but its more of a pleasure, like some Christians go into bible study. and some don't do it. its just a knack that some like to do.
simple mathematical equations fed into a computer could model patterns every bit as irregular and “chaotic” as a waterfall. They were able to apply this to weather patterns, coastlines, and all sorts of natural phenomena the possibilities were incredible
phenomena in nature are not only the norm, but are measurable by simple mathematical equations
chemistry...was once considered to be magic.
We are trained from an early age to think in linear terms but nature and the chaos within it are non-linear, and therefore require non-linear thinking to be understood (why gnosis is done, to think "outside of the box" in a non-linear way)

i like this.
This sounds simple, yet it reminds me of a logic class I had in college. We were doing simple Aristotelian syllogisms. All we had to do was to put everyday language into equation form. It sounds simple, and it is. However, it requires non-linear thought process. During that lesson over the space of a week, the class size dropped from 48 to 9 students. The computer programmers were the first to drop out. Those of us who survived that section went on to earn high grades in the class, but more importantly, found that we had achieved a permanent change in our thinking processes. Our lives were changed by that one simple shift of perspective.

Chaos science is still in the process of discovery

Chaos has no limits...




new word, help me with it.
Dogma - the established belief or doctrine held by a religion.
you know anything else of this word i should know?

if there is anything i need to clear up let me know

I'm not going to get farther into to it, i might in the future, but that will be enough for discussion

and on the side, i saw
Esoteric/Occult
---- Chaos Magic

esoteric :p there's that word again and Evil is right under it...which is a good sign for me changing my (yay!! favorate word) paradigm!!! lol. i loveee that word soo much...idk why.

btw, occults are not good in Christians eyes, why do they need to be more hidden if it would be accepted...
i don't know if it has anything to do with it, but i looked up cults too. and cult refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered strange, which is untrue, everyone is strange, because nothing is normal. so if this was true everything is a cult, which is also, untrue. cults in my eyes are evil, when i hear the word anyway. i dont study something that is that evil. is aid earlier i can learn something from everything, but there is stuff some people shouldn't learn. ill save studying that for the future, for when my faith is stronger.

ooh, i like these stories, their fun to read!
Legends/Sagas
---Lang Fairy Books

this is a very good site.

Heya Lazy, welcome to Surreal!!

Some intense conversation going on in here

Some intense conversation going on in here

My brain just exploded.

Haha, welcome to Surreal though Lazy. Hope you enjoy your time with us. Yet again, it's brilliant to see another Australian join!

Wow, there's a lot to digest there, I clearly made an impression and found a topic that you seem passionate about!

Perhaps it would be better if I structured my reply based on specific questions or points raised in your replies - I'll try that. Forgive me if I paraphrase, and correct me if I misinterpret.

but whats this sigil stuff? ... sure theres different kinds of sigils, theres a different king of everything, i wanna know what your kind is.

To be completely honest, I rarely make use of sigils any more. It is one of the first things most Chaotes learn about and attempt, and while it has its pragmatic benefits, particularly in disillusioning practitioners, I find that once the initial concept is understood, there are much more effective methods for achieving the same results. Perhaps a personal definition is in order..

I would consider sigilcraft to be very closely related to prayer. Sure, the method is different, and there is one striking difference that I will expand on shortly, but the idea behind the concept is the same. One first must designate an intent, or an aim for the prayer/sigil. Using a convention detailed by the paradigm, this intent is projected outwards such that forces outside of the control of the practitioner can put in place the circumstances that (hopefully) eventuate in a realisation of the chosen intent. Correct me if I have a misinformed or warped view of prayer, for you would be far more educated in its correct methodology. The difference I mentioned earlier between sigilcraft and prayer is that prayer does not require any disassociation with the intent (if one prays for rain, the effect will not be diminished by constantly thinking about the prayer once it has been completed), while sigilcraft, in its method, attempts to separate the intent from the ritual (of prayer or of creating/charging a sigil). This is due to a belief that what is often termed 'lust for results' can cause not only the ritual to fail, but provides it a chance to backfire or be negatively misinterpreted. As far as my personal application of sigilcraft goes, I find that it can provide a substantial relief in those moments where I cannot seem to get a particular thought/concept/idea out of my head. By designing a sigil and disassociating with the thought, I find that not only is it easier to distance myself from it, but it is often more effective in bringing about a desirable outcome than repetitive reverie.

Perhaps not the most succinct nor straightforward definition I've ever come up with, so if it raised a number of questions (as I'm sure it did) please let me know and I'll attempt to elaborate further. And now onto the next point!

It is said in the bible not to go too far into detail in other beliefs without being careful. and i am trying very hard to understand.

Just a quick disclaimer - at no point will I ever attempt to sway you from your faith. My aim is only ever to encourage introspective thinking and clear up misconceptions about alternate paradigms. If you ever find anything I say to be either offensive to your faith or implicitly coercive, please feel free to raise a fuss, for it was surely unintentional. I think you are genuinely open-minded and this is the first step to not only understanding other religions, but better applying the practices of a chosen religion to better one's situation and lifestyle. Much of what I say about chaos and other paradigms I experiment within is universally applicable - or at least the underlying concepts are. Learning about the differences between one's faith and the faith of others is often the best way to understand why exactly we believe what we do, and what pragmatic value can be attained by holding such beliefs. So bravo, my friend, you do your religion proud.

Also, side note: not sure if you made the connection, but vacuity == gnosis.

While I'm inclined to agree with the definition of gnosis as a 'knack', my personal view is that it is a means to an end. To elaborate further, the 'gnostic state' can be used to great effect but provides no intrinsic benefit on its own (besides perhaps an improved awareness of the effect of altered states, but that's a whole new topic =P).

new word, help me with it.
Dogma - the established belief or doctrine held by a religion.
you know anything else of this word i should know?

While this definition is technically correct, it by no means provides a full account. Allow me to elaborate:
Dogma is not at all unique to religion. Dogma is the type of belief or teaching that is expected to be accepted without investigation or even understanding, so it is natural that it is closely tied to religion. Yet I would also consider sigilcraft a type of dogma, at least until the purpose and method is completely understood, as the method is expected to be followed without detailed investigation into the purpose, or, more to the point, WHY exactly it works. Forgive my next comment, as it may come across as offensive, but the most often used example of dogma is religious texts, ie. the Bible. My personal view is that the Bible carries a great degree of truth, but that the truth is often written in parable form (not intended to be taken literally, but a moral can be uncovered if a sufficient understanding of the impetus behind the parable is discovered). I know that there are people who take the Bible entirely literally, and this is a perfect example of dogma. As you yourself have mentioned further in your reply, cults in general are another example of dogma, as the system behind them relies on ignorant acceptance of a shared core ideal, generally in opposition to (or at least not in alignment with) the related ideal within modern society.

btw, occults are not good in Christians eyes, why do they need to be more hidden if it would be accepted...

In fact, a definition that seems to fit closer with the concept of the occult is as follows:

Occult: An area of knowledge that exists outside the twin pillars of science and religion.

Which lends itself rather nicely to the commonly accepted definition you have quoted, as most people these days tend to align themselves with either science or religion (or both!) and any thought outside of these meta-paradigms is, as you've accurately described from a Christian point of view, considered either ignorant or heretical.

Woah. I just scrolled up and realised I've been rambling for at least a thousand words. Perhaps I'll leave you to digest what I've come up with so far, instead of rambling on for what could very well be another thousand words. =P

In closing, I appreciate the opportunity to both educate and learn from such an open-minded and passionate individual, and look forward to many extended discourses on various subjects.

<3
Lazy

Hiya Ben and welcome to Surreal

Welcome to Surreal Lazy

so dogma is like a postulate, it doesn't have to be proven to be right, however, some people don't believe its right, its not universal law. the more i read about a postulate online, away from school, its exactly like a postulate

and i know your not trying to sway my faith, its just i have to be careful with how much i learn. its not you its the whole learning process that can sway faith, which can confuse the mind, which can put me into sort of a gnosis state, which i believe is forbidden in Christianity, its too dangerous, in my eyes.

so, occults aren't religion or science, it is, again, esoteric.

My personal view is that the Bible carries a great degree of truth, but that the truth is often written in parable form (not intended to be taken literally, but a moral can be uncovered if a sufficient understanding of the impetus behind the parable is discovered).

agreed. but i do believe more than you probably.

about sigils. this is what i get from it, they are only used to reinforce your prayers, ill use it in terms i can put it in >.< its used to reinforce faith until your faith is strong enough you don't have to use them anymore. faith being what your trying to accomplish.

and any thought outside of these meta-paradigms is, as you've accurately described from a Christian point of view, considered either ignorant or heretical.

from most christian point of views yes, but I do believe you can learn from going outside these "walls" because its a good learning experience, but you just have to be careful.

I'm going to get ready for tonight, im going to a party. so I'll talk later this is fun, mainly because my head isn't exploding like it normally would be.